Spitfire Audio

Dave 0:30

What this marketing is really doing is kind of tapping into those of us who are just looking for the next best thing for looking for the next library that we hope is gonna be the thing that unlocks our career goals and I've talked about that on the channel before. That, my friends, is not true. No one library, no matter how multi-sampled, no matter how many hours of editing, no matter how many gigabytes they throw at you, no one library is going to unlock your career. What is happening, everybody? This is Dave Kroff, and welcome back to another episode of the 52Q's podcast, a weekly podcast dedicated to all things production and library music, where we talk about industry topics and take deep dives into the different aspects of being a working production music composer. If this is your first time here, welcome, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening to the audio on the go. I just wanna thank you for spending part of your day here with me today and please note that it's my sincere hope that you'll be able to take away a little something to help grow your career in the production music industry. Today's episode is made possible thanks to the support of the family, friends and patrons subscribers of 52Q's who really help keep all of this happening. We are 100% community supported, so you're not gonna hear any embedded sponsored ads. But if you wanna learn more about how you can help support 52Q's while also unlocking exclusive subscriber perks like livestreams, workshops, zoom coaching sessions, library briefs and a ton more, then be sure to click on the links in the description for more information.

Dave 2:26

So today I wanna take a few minutes to talk about Spitfire audio and before we get started, I wanna say that I don't mean this to come off super ranty and this isn't a clickbait thing, but because at the end of the day, I really like Spitfire. They're one of my favorite companies. I have terabytes of their product on my hard drive. I use Spitfire quite frequently. I've mentioned that Christian Henson is a big influence on me as a YouTuber and I like what he's about and all of that. And I know there was a ton of drama with Christian Henson and Spitfire and I'm not gonna even attempt to touch that with a 10-foot pole, but I feel like lately they've kind of lost their way and so while on one hand, I feel like if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all, and we try to keep things super positive here on the channel, but with someone who has invested a lot of money with their products, who believe in the company and recognize that they employ hundreds of people, whether it's the staff, whether it's the composers who work with them, whether it's the folks that they pay royalties to for their libraries. I mean that alone is so forward thinking and so outside the box thinking that I have a ton of respect for them.

Spitfire Audio's Marketing and Price Point

Dave 4:04

And if you didn't know that, my understanding is that Spitfire pays royalties to the performers in their libraries. So when they bring a string player in or an orchestra or whatever, they are cutting in those players into the sales. That's huge and to my knowledge they are one of, if not the only, company to do that. So I love what Spitfire's about, I love their user interface and they make a lot of products that cover a really wide range of applications. But I feel they've lost their way a little bit and I felt these rumblings about four years ago, four or five years ago, whenever BBCSO came out and we started to get this trickle of marketing. That's kind of the JJ Abrams mystery box marketing, where they would tease a little something, and something which is so amazing is about to redefine music, redefine, sample making, and for me it kind of started with that BBCSO trailer. It is a Spider-Man wonder trailer, a world noone ever watched.

Dave 5:33

I think we'll talk about the standard of TV series output for video لس秀 خلال جنون. And Now, I'm not gonna lie, this got me unbelievably hype for BBCSO. Like, hi, I bought it. I was an early adopter, I bought it right out of the gate. I got the full version before there was a core and a discovery. You know the free version and all of that. I went all in on BBCSO. But this kind of mystery box marketing. I was like, hmm, something's coming. They had a live event that they did where they revealed it and they talked about it. It was like Christian and Paul kind of doing their thing. It was super, super cool. And I was like, all right, this is the new flagship that they're going to be working with. And I was like all on board.

Dave 7:44

But then some other things started coming out and BBCSO, once the kind of the hype died and once things were released, then I felt like, okay, now there's like kind of Albion, neo Well, that's the new best, amazing thing. And then Abbey Road won Well, now, that's the new best thing. And then the latest, the thing that triggered this whole video, and where I'm like, okay, all right, spitfire, we need to you. Okay, over there, are you all right? Because not only, and what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Abbey Road Orchestra First Violins. Now, some of the things that, or some of the claims that were made in the BBCSO trailer a new standard, a new standard in orchestral composition I mean these are very brave terms, bold claims, world-class orchestra plugin yes, okay, their user interface is brilliant. And it was like I said, I was hype and I was ready to go. But this the latest, and I want to play a little bit of this the trailer for their latest plugin, which is the Abbey Road First Violins. So there's no doubt that hundreds and hundreds of hours well, they said like what? 2,000 hours went into this, and I believe that Abbey Road Orchestra First Violins is probably the most detailed, most advanced string library currently on the market. That's just.

Dave 10:40

By the way, I haven't used it. I have BBCSO. I love it. It's not without its issues, and we'll talk about that a little bit here later, but considering the amount of options you get with this library, the amount of detail, the forensic level of programming that you can do with this library, I think is arguably unparalleled. However, is it like the most amazing thing? Is it going to dramatically improve your life as a composer? I don't know. Their marketing would tell me that, and Spitfire's marketing team is on point. They are great. That trailer gives me hype. I'm like, okay, maybe I do need you know, maybe I do need this product. And so I started out by saying I like Spitfire as a company. This is not a slam on them as a company.

Dave 11:53

I want to play a little bit more from the trailer, going into Paul's walkthrough a little bit, with some demos right out of the gate. Paul Thompson here from Spitfire Audio. Now that sounds good. It sounds good and I recognize all the work that went into it, all the mic positions, all the legato transitions, everything that went into it. So I just want to commend Spitfire for the work that's gone into this.

Dave 12:55

If I am being honest, if I can just be honest, what I that little demo I just heard didn't like completely blow me away. Which is fine, it's MIDI. There are just fundamental limitations on what MIDI software can do and so I was willing to be like, okay, all right, this is, this is what it is, so very cool. First violins. It wasn't until I saw this 449. And that stopped me dead in my tracks and at that point I went from okay, kind of mystery box marketing to. This is the next best thing. They're marketing their products. I totally get it. It's what they do, you know when you. You know they advertise their products the same way a movie advertises their product. I get it, I understand it. It's not my favorite thing and I have largely managed to step back from the FOMO factor that I think Spitfire kind of praise on a little bit. But I think that's just a marketing thing.

Cost & Usefulness of Abbey Road Orchestra First Violins

Dave 14:21

But as soon as as you come at me with, and for your audio folks, a $450 price tag for just the first violins, I think we got problems because what I just heard and in some of the other demos there are plenty of demos on YouTube that you can check out Many of them were either sponsored or the composers got the library for free. And I am I am someone who has gotten stuff for free and while, yes, you're not being compensated to to say one thing, one or the other, but chances are, if they're giving it for free, you're already probably a fan and you're probably pre inclined to kind of give them the benefit of the doubt. But 450 bucks for the first violins just one section, and that demo from Paul, I'm sorry to say and I mean absolutely no disrespect, I say this with love as somebody who really, really loves Spitfire that demo did not blow me away. That was literally the first I heard of that library, and I've heard some other things which sound pretty decent, but that's the thing. If we were to extrapolate the, the, the cost, so let's do some napkin math here. Let's say, the first violins are $450 and I know they were on sale. I know there's educational discounts, but this is suggested retail price.

Dave 16:18

Five string sections If we did, first violence, second violence, violas, cellos and bases. Do bases need that depth? Probably not. But let's just napkin math the, just the string section alone would be over $2,200. Okay, what about brass? What? So let's put all the trumpets together, all the horns together, trombones and tuba, so that would be almost $1,800. Let's look at the woodwinds Flute, clarinet. Let's put, let's put oboe and English horn together and bassoon again Another $1,800.

Dave 17:09

Now, now let's look at the percussion. Let's put all of the battery percussion together, so that would be your snare drums, your Grand Casa, your Piatty, all of the. Let's put all of the non-pitched percussion together. Let's put all of the pitched percussion together, so Cretalli's, vyberphone, galakinspiel, maremba, tubular bell. Let's put all of those together and now let's put the tempony together, that would be $1,300 over that, which brings the cost for the entire orchestra.

Dave 17:48

If we were just to extrapolate and to be fair, they've made zero announcement. We don't know the prices. I am just extrapolating using napkin math we are looking at almost $7,200 for the orchestra. Now I think they would be out of their bleeping mind to release in this market a $7,000 plug-in. I think sample libraries have come a long way and they are making great strides.

Dave 18:27

Sound paint, as of this recording just a couple of weeks ago, released Ad Astra, and it sounds really amazing. And it's what? $100? Can Ad Astra do what Abbey Road First Violins does? Absolutely not. It's not trying to be, but $99 versus $2,000, if we're staying to the strings, it just begs the question who is this for?

Dave 19:06

Who is Abbey Road Orchestra First Violins for? If we're spending $450 for just the first violins, not all the strings, $450 for just the strings, that would be pretty steep. Who is this for? Well, is it for trailer composers? I don't think so. I don't think trailer composers need the forensic level of detail that you would use to really get the most out of this library. I don't think trailer composers are going to do that. I think us production music composers. This is the wrong library for us. If you're a library production music composer, it's so much about being able to write quickly, with quality, but write quickly. This is why. And write a lot right, prolifically. This is why ensemble patches do us really really well. Same for trailer folks. Trailer folks are like big epic sounds. You're looking to layer three or four different string libraries on top of each other to give that epic sound. There are many better options for us production music composers than Abbey Road Orchestra. First Violins and again it sounds okay. Here's a trailer cue that they put up on the site here and this is the trailer music for the trailer itself. So we've heard that. Alright, here's another one Now. It should be noted that this cue also features Spitfire Heart Intimate Grand Piano and Abbey Road One Sparkling Woodwinds. Alright, let's listen to another one Now.

Dave 22:11

This demo is ambitious as hell. You know Oliver Patrice Vader, you know he's on the channel. It's extremely gifted, extremely talented, but this is All. Those runs are nearly impossible, and I say this with all the love and no disrespect to Mr Vader here. Those string runs, I'm sorry, they betray the MIDI Artifice that I don't really know of any library that could pull that off. Maybe this is the best that's out there right now and maybe I'm just being picky and maybe I, I don't know. Maybe I edit this whole part out. I probably won't. I mean, everything else sounds really, really good. Here's another demo yeah, the Legatos and Portamentos. That sounds good. It's like this is sticking to what MIDI can do well and what the library does well. The previous with all those runs. I mean that is super courageous to put that out there. But I noticed it with Paul's demo those fast runs.

Dave 24:29

And here's the thing at the end of the day it doesn't feel like a $2,000 string library. It doesn't feel like it doesn't necessarily sound like it. So there's that. Who needs the forensic level of detail that this library across, like 16 different mic positions, who is really looking for? The only thing that I can guess would be mock-up composers or composers assistants.

Spitfire's Abbey Road First Violins

Dave 25:10

I think composers assistants are the real market for this, Not me. I am not the target demographic for this. I am not the professional demographic who would get the most out of this. I am not the economic demographic. I don't have potentially $7,000 to spend on a library, on a sample library, and if I did have $7,000 to pay for a sample library, then would I be hiring string players anyway. But I think it's for composer assistants either working on lower budget productions, specifically films, because all of the examples that we've heard, they're all very cinematic. It's all very kind of classical, and I mean classic, not classical classic orchestration, classic orchestra applications.

Dave 26:16

But the real question is is a composer's assistant working up a mockup that's eventually going to get re-recorded? And if that's the case, then are all of the levers and pulleys and bells and whistles that Abbey Road First Violins offers? Is it worth, not the financial investment but the composer's assistant's time, the investment of paying somebody to make that as realistic as possible, if the idea is being a mockup, if it's going to get re-recorded, or can you use something like Albion One or even Abbey Road One? These libraries offer a ton of value for a fraction of the cost. So Abbey Road One is $449 for the entire orchestra recorded in the same space with, admittedly, significantly fewer options, whether it's mic positions, whether it's legato, transitions, whatever, all of those things that make Abbey Road One First Violins, all the things that make that separate the Abbey Road Orchestra Foundations all in one. That's an ensemble thing. It works. Then Albion One for ensemble writing which, as of this recording, is also $450. But let's say you're a composer's assistant or you're even a production music composer, like me, and you need more detailed control over the parts of the orchestra. You don't need strings, you need first violin, second violin, viola and all of that kind of thing.

Dave 28:22

Then BBCSO, I think, is, as this ad says, a gold standard. Now IT, as a time of this writing, is $1,000. I didn't pay $1,000 for it, but I did pay $700 for it and it's huge. I literally had to buy a new hard drive to hold it. And, as I mentioned, it's not without its problems. It's pretty CPU hungry. It chews up RAM faster than any other contact library I've ever used. And it's not a contact library, it's its own plug-in which gets better and better over time. They have improved it. When I first got it, rather, the bassoons were terrible. Did not like the bassoons at all, the horns were blah. But they've improved those things, we've cleaned them up.

Dave 29:15

But when I need split string sections I absolutely reach for BBCSO. I have zero buyer's remorse getting BBCSO and I can't because I'm not a composer's assistant. I don't do mockups like detailed mockups that need to go sit in a meeting and be played in a meeting with the likes of Kevin Feige or Steven Spielberg or whatever. I do not swim in those deep waters, I don't, admittedly, but the level of detail that BBCSO offers as a production music composer is more than I will ever use. And not to mention all of the exhaustive mic positions. Like too much. You gave me too much of a good thing here. I've gone in, I've spent some time tweaking the mic positions. I like this much of the tree, this much of the outrigger, this much of the stereo, this much of the close right. It's like four different mic positions that I kind of mix and that's it. That's what I use pretty much for everything these days.

Dave 30:33

Personally, I like the sound of the BBCSO library better, the Abbey Road. For me the room is just kind of or maybe it's the room, maybe it's the way they recorded it, and again, I mean no disrespect to anybody involved. I know thousands of hours went into this and I get it. I'm not the target demographic, but I'm just going to respond to it because, as a person in the industry talking to folks who feel kind of tugged and pulled into these different sales and marketing and everything. So for me, the Abbey Road room itself, it's not my favorite, much more like Air Studios. I like Air Studios and the BBCSO room. I forget what the actual name of the room is. Yeah, it's got kind of an unusual name to it and my apologies for not remembering. Oh, made of Veil Studios Been a business since 1909.

Dave 31:36

Anyway, I like the sound of that and I feel like I can work it with other reverbs and everything, whereas with Abbey Road I feel like I'm kind of stuck into that if I were to get it. So I think while this Abbey Road 1 First Violence isn't for me from a usage perspective, it's certainly not for me from a cost perspective and all of that where I wish that Spitfire would return to was whatever sparkly alchemy was happening when evolutions were like front and center Modern thinking, really somewhat experimental modern production, modern film music, modern music for media scoring, modern tools and Abbey Road Orchestra 1st Violence to me feels like a step backwards. I listened to these amazing demos and maybe I'm just so far removed from that scene, but it doesn't necessarily feel like the type of music that I am hearing, whether it's film, tv or whatever. It doesn't feel like that and I've felt that perhaps Spitfire is kind of retreading very familiar ground because they're exceedingly good at it. They're good at recording, they're good at sample manipulation, they're good at programming. I mean, they created their own plugin which is pretty darn stable, if you ask me Again now, without its problems, but all things considered it's pretty dang good. I think East-West could take some notes, but it's not the most forward-looking thing.

Dave 33:57

A few months ago BBCSO pianos came out and I had the very similar questions like who is this for? Who's looking for this? And as a BBCSO owner I was like why didn't you just include that? But to be honest, I don't need another piano. Does the market need another piano? Does the market need another string library which is just straight down the middle and not bringing much new to the table for the mass audience, the mass consumer of their sample libraries?

Dave 34:49

I don't know. I think maybe not. Maybe I'm just not the target demo and so because I'm not a composer's assistant, because I don't work in LA, I don't work on that level. Maybe I just don't get it. You know, it's kind of like watching a show and it's in a foreign language and you're like I don't understand, something's getting lost. And maybe it's just that.

Dave 35:20

But on the other hand they've already they've also released a core version of First Violins. That's $2.49, that's $250. So I'm like, okay, all right, so that's a little bit more palatable, even though if you extrapolate the entire library you're still looking at $4,000 nearly. But we don't know that math, if that math is accurate. But the core version only has one mic position. You have one mic position, you have most of the articulations but not all of the articulations. So for $250, which is a quarter of the price of BBCSO you can get one string section with one mic position and a handful of articulations. Or you can pay four times that, get $1,000. Now you have BBCSO with exhaustive mic positions and most of the articulations I can imagine you ever needing.

Dave 36:26

So I applaud Spitfire for going this direction. I let me say that again, I applaud Spitfire for the ambitiousness of this project. I applaud them. But I also want to return to the Spitfire that was really, really pushing into new territory, the evolutions that feels like modern, modern scoring tools, the Oliver Arnold stuff. I was I really, really liked that. But for the last several years maybe it's COVID restrictions or the limitations of, you know, a pandemic and a post pandemic world, I don't know. But I just feel that Spitfire has somewhat lost their way, retreading very familiar ground, releasing products which are, I believe, well, I don't see products. This product I believe the industry wasn't necessarily looking for and doesn't bring ultimately enough to the table to get to move the needle from a person like me. So that's what I think.

Dave 37:51

What do you think? Have you picked up Abbey Road First Violins? Have you used it? Am I totally off base? You know, if you like this video, give me a thumbs up If I am dead wrong. And if you hate it and you're like Dave, get over yourself. You're clearly not right, then downvote the hell out of this video.

Dave 38:15

But that's how I'm feeling as a consumer, as a working professional composer, as an educator who talks to students all the time, whether they're working professionals or whether they're college students. We all subscribe to the same newsletters. We're all getting the same marketing. But I will say, if you are a production music composer, if that is your gig and that's what you're focusing on and that's what we hyper-focus on here, I strongly encourage you not to buy this first violin library. I don't believe what we write calls for the clinical, forensic level of detail that this thing provides. It's way too expensive and at this point where it's at right now, I don't believe the execution matches the price tag for us production music composers to make that investment. But I would love to hear from you and to hear your thoughts. So that's it.

Dave 39:33

We've talked about Spitfire. If you're feeling like that whole FOMO thing, then I would encourage you to unsubscribe from these marketing emails. We're about to go into the Christmas shopping season. As of this recording, it's the beginning of October. As I'm recording this, we're about a month away from the absolute deluge Blitzkrieg of Black Friday and every company is going to be reaching their handout wanting you to buy something from them. And I get it, I totally get it. I mean, 52qs is a company. We have subscribers, I provide a service, I get money in exchange. So it's not about that, it's not about doing business. But if there's a part of you that feels like, oh, I've got to buy that next thing, then unsubscribe from the emails please do. I have I've unsubscribed from Spitfire's list because it was triggering in me that FOMO response and I went into that kind of anxiety mode.

Dave 40:57

Because if that's you, then what this marketing is really doing is kind of tapping into those of us who are just looking for the next best thing, looking for the next library that we hope is gonna be the thing that unlocks our career goals and I've talked about that on the channel before. That, my friends, is not true. No one library, no matter how multi-sampled, no matter how many hours of editing, no matter how many gigabytes they throw at you, no one library is going to unlock your career. No library is gonna be the key that is going to help you finally land a gig. No sample library is gonna do that, regardless of whatever the marketing might say and you know Spitfire isn't alone in this.

Dave 42:00

I think they are some of the leaders in this kind of marketing technique, kind of preying on if you get this thing now, you'll be able to be successful. Now you'll be able to be successful. Not to be fair, I don't think their marketing has ever come out and said that thing, but that's how I feel and I've talked to many of you and I know exactly that's how you feel. But none of these libraries are going to do the work for you. Use what you have, get good at writing and then buy a library that fills a need. Don't buy a library because you think, finally, it's going to help you succeed. Nope, that's between like you, your muse, your drive, your dedication, your patience, your skills skills with the DAW, skills with understanding, orchestration and arrangement that does so much more to help propel your career than any one sample library. So I just want to leave you with that. If you feel like the marketing is getting to you, then unsubscribe. Simple as that. But again, would love to hear from you and I really do appreciate you sticking with me through this kind of quasi-rant. So that's going to do it for me this week.

Dave 43:37

And, as always, a huge word of thanks to the family, friends and patron subscribers of 52Qs who keep all of this going. If you want to join us, then head over to 52Qscom. It is free to join the community, but we offer a ton of other subscriber perks. We have multiple levels and coming up a little bit later we are going to be adding a new subscriber tier to the 52Qs community that is under. We have the free community and then we have the friends and family and we are adding a tier kind of right below friends there, but more information on that next time or soon.

Dave 44:14

Speaking of soon, you definitely want to tune in next week where I am going to be joined by a fellow 52Qs community member, hans York, who's an amazing guitarist, an all-around great guy, also works with Jesse over at Sync, my Music, and he sits down and talks about that, talks about his process, and so you don't want to miss my sit-down with Hans York, but again, that's going to do it for me. Thank you so much for joining me. I hope you've had an amazing week and I know, trust and believe, friends, that the universe has amazing plans just for you. Until next time, peace. The 52Qs podcast is copyrighted 2023 at 18 Studios. All rights reserved. The music played on the podcast is copyrighted to their respective owners and is used with permission and for educational purposes only. For more information and including joining the community and submitting your cue for consideration on the podcast, head over to 52Qscom.